Leadership Series: Demystifying the C-Suite Search with Ann Fastiggi of Spencer Stuart

So, you want to be a C-suite executive? It will certainly give you a leg up to hear about the steps to filling those corner office suites from a search firm expert, Ann Fastiggi. To shed some light on the path to the C-suite, we continue our Leadership Series with Ann Fastiggi, a member of the Global Consumer Practice at Spencer Stuart, a global executive search and leadership advisory firm. 

With more than 20 years of executive recruiting and leadership consulting experience, Ann focuses on the recruitment and assessment of C-suite executives in the hotel, restaurant, gaming, consumer travel, consumer, and retail sectors. 

Ann, a BU alum, is a Dean’s Advisory Board member for the School of Hospitality Administration. 

The “Distinguished” podcast is produced by Boston University School of Hospitality Administration.

Host: Arun Upneja, Dean
Producer: Mara Littman, Director of Corporate and Public Relations
Sound Engineer and Editor: Andrew Hallock
Graphic Design: Rachel Hamlin, Marketing Manager

Music: “Airport Lounge" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0

Transcript

Arun: So, you want to be a C-Suite Executive? Nice. But how do you get there? What are the steps to filling those corner office suites? How do you map out the right career path? And finally, when you are a candidate, what is it like to work with an Executive Search firm? To shed some light on the path to the C-Suite, we continue our leadership series with Ann Fastiggi. Ann is a member of the Global Consumer Practice at Spencer Stuart, a global executive search and leadership advisory firm, where she specializes in the hospitality and leisure industry. With more than 20 years of executive recruiting and leadership consulting experience, she focuses on the recruitment and assessment of CEOs, CFOs, CMOs and other C-Suite executives in the hotel, restaurant, gaming, consumer travel, consumer and retail sectors. Ann is also a BU alumna, a BU parent and on our Dean's Advisory Board for the School of Hospitality Administration. I'm Arun Upneja, Dean of the school and Ann, welcome to the Distinguished podcast. 

Ann: Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here. 

Arun: We've had this conversation many times before about the C-Suite search process. Now before our conversations, like many people, I used to think search firms like Spencer Stuart are headhunters. You get a contract, cast a wide net, send all the resumes to the company search committee. Let them do the job of simplifying or reducing the number of resumes they want to interview, and then you facilitate the interviews. Of course, now I understand that there is a lot more to the process and a lot more that you do. So just so that we are all on the same page, can you describe what is the search for a C-Suite executive look like? 

Ann: Sure. It's a lot more complicated and a lot harder than it seems, of course, because if it was so easy, then clients would just do it themselves. But one of the things that I find so fascinating about it is that it's a real balance between doing the research and the homework to try and figure out who is going to be appropriate for that particular opportunity, in addition to then having to really evangelize or sell that opportunity to those individuals and get them excited about what the client is facing, what that role could mean for their future. But in terms of details of how it works, it's everything from really doing a deep dive on the client's culture, really trying to understand what problem they are trying to solve with recruiting the right individual for that role, and then really trying to figure out not only what are the experiences you're seeking, but what are the capabilities. And the capabilities we can talk about, you know, at length, but is really the key to unlocking, changing the landscape around diversity. Because if we keep looking for somebody who has done that exact same thing somewhere else, you will end up sort of recruiting in likeness instead of really coming up with bold and new leaders. And that's what makes it so exciting for us. But there's also all sorts of things happening behind the scenes for us, including doing the references that the candidate has not provided. Really finding out about people's reputations in the industry and not just reputations, but how did they get the things done that we all know they might have done in order to have great success in their career. 

Arun: Wow, that is a lot to unpack here. So let's slowly start. So the first thing you said is you do a lot of research and homework on, and let's say you started with the client culture. So how do you learn about the client culture? 

Ann: The simplest way is really asking the client to divulge more about their culture. One of the things that Spencer Stuart has in its proprietary toolbox is a culture survey that many clients will participate in and allow their leaders to take so that we get at least a baseline of what it's like to operate in that environment. The good news is in hospitality, once you've worked in the landscape like I have for as long as I have, you tend to have a little bit of a head start understanding where the cultures of different organizations are might sit. But the other part of it is really understanding not only where the culture is today, meaning how are they able to get things done in that organization, but where are they aspiring to take the future culture. Because really when we're recruiting, we're trying to recruit somebody that's going to take them to that future goal of where the culture is today. So it could be that an organization is highly results-driven, that they put a premium on people who have the financial acumen and the drive and the assertion to get things done. 

But maybe it's not the warmest and friendliest environment. And maybe they realize that they're having maybe retention issues or reputational issues and that they want to become a more inclusive, warmer or more collaborative environment. So really it starts with the client trying to self-identify and us using our proprietary tools to help uncover things as well. But oftentimes it means just going there, spending time there, being in the hallways and talking to some of the people there. 

Arun: So I guess if you do multiple searches for a firm, then it becomes easier because you already know the culture of the firm. 

Ann: Yes, without a doubt. 

Arun: Right. But when you are doing at the C-Suite, let's talk right at the very top, CEO. Mm-hmm. So who is your client essentially in this case? 

Ann: Usually in the case of a CEO search, your client is the board of directors. Now it obviously depends on whether or not it's a public company, it's a private equity-backed situation, or if it's in fact an old-fashioned private company that might be family-owned or something like that. Typically in the public company, for sure, it is the board of directors. And there might even be a subset of the board of directors often that consider part of the nominating and governance committee that would lead that on behalf of the board, and then the broader board gets involved at the end. In private equity, it might be that there's a set of key stakeholders, maybe the board is a little bit smaller, and there are key investment individuals that are managing that portfolio company that would be your primary contact. 

Arun: So, now let's move to other searches. So, CFO, Chief Marketing Officer, Chief Financial Officer and other C-Suite executives. I know obviously you'll spend a lot of time with the CEO to make sure that your search process is in alignment with him or her. What about the board at that point? Are you also engaging with the board? 

Ann: It depends. Many different boards will have a keen interest in a particular functional area or not. It could be a Chief Financial Officer. It could be requiring some board alignment or board input in order to select that individual. It could even be things like internal audit, for example, where the audit committee of the board would want to really weigh in with that individual. Usually, with the others, it's typically a decision made by the CEO and other C-Suite executives. The board may weigh in at the end to say this is the CEO selection for this C-Suite role. We'd like a few members of the board to meet this individual and give their approval. 

Arun: So, okay, so now let's move more into the, so you have met all the board members, you have some sort of an alignment in terms of what you're looking for, then what happens, then what do you do? 

Ann: So at that point, it moves into the writing of the job description, which I'll get to in a second. It moves into also just the development of that search strategy. Where are we going to go to look for this individual? What are those key criteria that we're looking for in the selection process? And then really trying to craft, you know, what is going to be an activation of our network, as well as using our proprietary database and, you know, kind of prioritizing who we'll reach out to. But the job description sounds like it's pretty straightforward and pretty basic, but it actually is used for two purposes. One is it's used as a marketing tool because that job description will be circulated. If it's not a confidential search, it'll be circulated out into the marketplace, you know, and you want that to really put the company in the opportunity and the best light. But it also serves as an informal contract between you and the client in terms of what good looks like. So you've stated that these are the priorities, and you've stated that this is what you're looking for. You know, are we all aligned and are we going to be off on the right foot? 

Arun: Okay. So now, then we move into the search strategy. So this job is advertised. A lot of people are applying. They're applying to the search, to you, to the search firm. And you also have, you mentioned your own proprietary database. So let's say a new person applies, then what happens to that application? 

Ann: So let me just demystify something right there. We don't advertise the job. So there's no posting of the job up on a Spencer Stuart website. You know, it could be the client has decided to post on their own website, mostly with the idea of trying to identify internal candidates that might raise their hand for the opportunity. But what we're doing is we're proactively reaching out to the people that we want to target for the search. So let's say we do that. Let's say we reach out to somebody, and we say, Arun, we've got this great opportunity for you. Let me tell you all about it. And you say, yes, that sounds very interesting. And I've then sent you the job description. The next thing is to really dive right into it and find out more about you and do usually it's sort of the first stage could be a bit of a phone interview and screening there where you might spend 20 minutes kind of talking through, you know, a preliminary sort of pre-qualification for the role. And then you do an interview, and the interview would be typically with a, you know, a consultant or partner like me, you know, and that could be something done in person or on video and could be a much deeper dive. Usually it's about an hour. 

Arun: So the search firm is the first gauntlet that candidates have to face? 

Ann: Usually yes. I mean, that's sort of our preferred method is to take that off the client so that they're not having to screen people and then send them to us. I mean, if the client prefers to do that, we of course accommodate, but usually that's what they're preferring is that we're the first gate. 

Arun: So candidates are applying and you're looking at your own database to see who are the people that you know well already, who would be suitable, and then you approach them. New people are approaching and then you're doing all of these informational interviews and getting to know. At some point, are you also doing personality tests on these candidates, or is that? Not a personality test, but just going one step backwards. Let's say that the client was a luxury hotel company, and we were developing the search strategy for that. One of the questions we would ask the client upfront is, do you want somebody who comes from the luxury hotel environment? Are you open to people who might be in the upscale hotel segment? Are you open to people who are not in the hotel industry but are in luxury goods or services in other places? And then you're trying to figure out, okay, if the role is a chief marketing officer, do we need somebody who's already been a chief marketing officer? Or could we take somebody for whom that's the next step up in their career? And then you identify who those people are. So we're not really doing so much a personality testing as much as once we have those people on the phone and we're engaging them, we're really trying to assess against a variety of different factors, you know, their personality, their style, their communication style, all goes into that assessment. 

Arun: I want to now switch to asking about career experiences and leadership qualities and what are other beneath the surface qualities that signal to you that these candidates might be successful and that you want to put forth to the company. So one thing you did mention that right at the outset, you are going to check to see if they want somebody from outside the industry, somebody who has had industry experience. So what other trends you are seeing these days? Do they want people with relevant industry experience or people are much more open to getting people from outside? 

Ann: Well, the good news is that there are industries out there outside of hospitality that are looking to find hospitality talent to fill needs that they have where they want that extra set of customers experience skills or they want that relationship building experience or things that they have spotted in hospitality around the service and people orientation that they'd like. But it is a great question to ask because oftentimes a client will start out being more open minded and saying, no, I'm open to looking at somebody. I might be a hotel company that is looking to say somebody from restaurants and theme parks, or gaming could work. And then they get into the search, and they start meeting people and through the process, realize I'm really the most comfortable with people from the hotel industry. So I started out thinking I might be a little bit more open minded, but now I think I want to really home in on what is known to be and what is going to be more comfortable or what their perception is will be a steeper and faster learning curve. 

Arun: That's very interesting, but you did mention that other industries outside hospitality are much more open to hospitality senior executives. So talk about that a little bit. 

Ann: So it could be something as straightforward as it's a retailer that realizes that in order to win the intensely competitive battle in their space that they need to do a much better job of engaging customers in the store or to have done a better job even online engaging people in the way that they perceived other segments in hospitality have done. And so you've seen people get poached from the hotel industry to retail in order to bring that particular set of experiences. It could be something like a business that might be ancillary is looking to really double down on things that the hospitality industry does so well like revenue management and really adopting those practices in order to really optimize revenue. So it comes in different forms, but it tends to be some of the pillars of hospitality that they're going after that they realize might be existing inside of hospitality that they want to really address for their company. 

Arun: So everyone who is listening, who are senior executives in the hospitality industry, take note. 

Ann: That's right. 

Arun: The path to the corner office may be outside the world of hospitality. 

Ann: That's exactly right. 

Arun: So let's move on to leadership. So what kind of qualities are companies looking for their CEO now, the C-Suite executives? What are the leadership qualities they look for? 

Ann: First and foremost, I think people are looking for decisive leaders who really know how to inspire and energize the team in order to really be focused on a mission. That mission could be growth, it could be transformation, but they're looking for people that literally create an environment that other people want to follow. It's sort of the most basic definition of leadership. 

Arun: So has that changed? How have you seen it since you've been in this business for so many years? How have you seen that evolve? 

Ann: It has changed a little bit. And it's changed because the world has gotten much more complicated. And we have the pandemic to thank for some of this disruption because now all of a sudden it's a lot more difficult to lead in an environment where your team might be very, very disparate and geographically dispersed, working from home, looking for different things out of their work experience, bringing different work ethics and generational differences that we see that really do make that job much more difficult. And so the areas around even things like your character and your focus on purpose and mission have really come to the forefront. Things like humility and even agility are really critical in that whole process. And sort of selection around things. And they are looking for people who are going to be bold and decisive. You know, we use the word courage. We're looking for people with some executive courage to make decisions that aren't necessarily always the popular or conventional direction to go in. 

Arun: So I want to go back to this, you know, decisive, courage, bold. At the same time, you did mention the word humility. So how do you put them in the same person that someone is very humble, has humility, yet has the decisiveness and the bold leadership? 

Ann: It is kind of viewed as the secret formula that's hard to find. But in hospitality, it's sort of easy to point to when people can lead with a bit of their own vulnerability from their career journeys, whether or not it's, you know, people that started their careers as a dishwasher, busboy or, you know, even people that have been, you know, in housekeeping or in other areas in the front lines and the service front lines, who, as they continue to elevate and move up that big ladder up into the C-Suite, maintain some level of real understanding for how difficult those roles are, and, you know, are considered relatable. You know, you want somebody who is, you know, greeting a guest at the front line of whatever that is, the restaurant, the hotel, the theme park, the casino, whatever it is, you want them to feel as inspired by that CEO and the leader, because they know that they walk by and they greet them by name or they, you know, take the time to really understand what their struggles might be, because their struggles really do bubble up to being the biggest issues for the company. 

Arun: So if you've come up through the school of hard knocks, don't claim that you walked on water right from day one. 

Ann: No. Be honest. Yeah, be honest about, you know, how difficult those jobs are, what the difficult path was to get them elevated to where they are, what were the tough choices they had to make. It could be as simple as, you know, I had to make family sacrifices. I had to move my family in order to move up to the next promotion. I had to, you know, stretch myself beyond my comfort zone in the roles that I was asked to take on. That becomes a very, very common theme in assessing the number of leaders that we meet. 

Arun: In the old days, you joined a company and you stayed with them for the rest of your life, the rest of your working career. That seems to have changed. People jump jobs quite a bit. So what are the pros and cons of building your career within an organization versus looking at new opportunities? And when do you know to stay the course versus jump ship and look for new opportunities? 

Ann: I wish that was a very simple answer. I do think that companies still really like to have loyal employees. And it's a very admirable quality to have loyalty for a company or for a leader. What we see is that oftentimes people will follow really phenomenal mentors, which means taking them out of the company into a new company where the mentor has gone and pulled them back to say, come join me on this journey in a new company. I think that it is incumbent on the individual to make sure that the company is investing in them and giving them opportunities to make sure they don't get stagnant or that they don't, you know, become complacent in their roles so that you're continuing to have energy and great learning in the role and that you do feel as though you are properly sort of recognized for the contributions you're making. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. And so if you feel that you're working for a boss that is not recognizing your talents, that is preventing you from learning, preventing you from stretching your skills and things like that, it may mean reassessing and figuring out that now is the right time for me to leave the organization and work for somebody who's going to be much more supportive and going to provide those opportunities for you to develop and grow. It doesn't mean that all leaders are like that. So most people when they're leaving a company aren't leaving the company. They're leaving the person they didn't like working for. 

That is a recurring theme that you hear tossed around quite often, that you're leaving your boss, you're not leaving the company, so to speak. And so sometimes it means having to put up with a short-term unhappiness or dissatisfaction in your job in order to see the bigger picture. But I would be the first person to say that people should not put up with that for long, that you do need to feel as though you're being recognized for the value that you're bringing to the company. And if you feel like over a period of time that that's not the case, it is a good time to pick your head up and think about new opportunities. 

Arun: Now you also mentioned mentors and the fact that when many people who are leaving are following other people around. So in one way, this is, you know, you have a senior executive and they're guiding you and they're coaching you and they leave to take up another job in another company and you follow them into that other company. A negative side of that is, okay, I'm going to come in as a senior executive, I'm going to bring in all my people. So what's that going to do to the existing people that are there? So that is how do you balance bringing in your own people who you might have been mentoring or coaching versus now the existing set of existing people in the firm? 

Ann: Yeah, there's been many stories of that, you know, of people that have not taken the time to really evaluate the team they're inheriting and they're more comfortable bringing in the team they know and the people that they know that can drive the results they want to drive quickly. I think it is a balance. I think it is a shortcut not to take the time to really invest in the leadership team that you have. In many cases, that's why the client is looking to hire somebody. They know the team under them needs a different level of leadership, a different level of investment and development in them. So it is sort of a shame to then just toss them out in favor of bringing in all the people that you knew from the last place. I think there is a balance, though. I think it is good to bring in fresh new thinking. It doesn't mean you have to turn the whole team over, but I think bringing in a key executive here or there is actually a very healthy thing to do, particularly when you are trying to drive some kind of change or transformation. 

Arun: Yeah, one of the things that many times happens in an organization, there is a culture, and that culture degenerates into a very toxic culture. So you bring in a new CEO, and if you are doing a piecemeal change of executives, the old culture continues to persist. At that point, you might have to do a wholesale. And do you get that sense already when you are talking to the board of directors that whether this culture needs a wholesale change, or does it only need a new CEO with one or two key executives coming in? 

Ann: The good news is they are usually much more thoughtful and insightful about the team, and may say something like, we think we have a good CFO and CMO, but we are not so sure about whether or not the Chief Operating Officer is the right person. They plant the seeds, but they are not going all the way to saying they have to go. I think they come in sort of giving just enough information for the new CEO in this case to make the decision, like, okay, I have got at least a point of view about how the board feels about these people. It is sometimes hard if the board is saying, wow, that person in this key role really isn't the right player here. And we haven't been able to get the previous CEO to take care of that. You know, we really do need to make that change. That's really hard to go against. I mean, you can, and you can get in there and decide that that individual really needs a second chance and that there are some great skills that were never allowed to flourish or, you know, that there was something there that was preventing them from being their best selves. 

You can certainly do that. But the board will often signal to you that that's the case. And it's one of the reasons why Spencer Stuart really loves getting involved in the onboarding and that initial kind of 100 days of a new CEO, because we have rolled out a brand new program for CEO acceleration that's really geared toward helping drive results more quickly, but at the same time allowing for a new CEO to really get their feet wet, to really assess the culture, to assess the team, to assess the situation and not make rash decisions right out of the gate. But I think that's part of the biggest challenge is walking in the door on your first day and realizing like how do I figure out what's going on here? What's preventing us from being better? 

Arun: So can you talk a little bit about this 100 day that you just mentioned? What is this program? 

Ann: It's not so much a program. There are definitely books written about it and there's sort of a philosophy, I suppose to allow yourself enough time to be able to do a bit of a listening tour, if you will, to really get in there and understand what you're inheriting as opposed to just making quick assumptions. And it's very easy and natural, by the way, to make quick assumptions. You've been through a long-protracted interview process. You've heard from all of the board on what they think is going on in the company. And you think you've had this great experience in your most recent career, and you think you've got all the answers. It's very, very easy to jump right in and just hit go. It's a more disciplined leader that can take the time to do really the listening and learning and really understanding what they're inheriting, to understand before they start making major decisions. And the balancing, the 100 days is a little bit like that balance of I don't want to wait too long. I can't wait six months or a year before I make any decisions because maybe the investor group or the board or other people in the company will wonder what in the world is this new CEO doing. They haven't made any changes. Nothing has happened, you know. And so you have to balance that sort of need to do something distinctive with really being more thoughtful and deliberate. 

Arun: So I want to just ask one more follow-up question on the mentorship issue. So it seems that mentors are very important in your professional career, particularly for young professionals, but for everyone. So why do mentors matter and how do you go about selecting the right mentor? 

Ann: Well, first, let me say there's a difference between a mentor and a sponsor, and they're both really important in your career. A mentor can be a bit of a sort of sage advisor, a safe person to talk to, kind of maybe it's sort of a brush with reality sometimes when you're going through a difficult time, but you feel like this is something I'd like to talk to somebody who's slightly fresh perspective, who's outside of my immediate situation and can give me some perspective that I couldn't get because the other people I'm working with are too close to it. That will be helpful throughout anyone's entire life, I believe. A sponsor is somebody who is specifically going to be tied toward the advancement of your career. The person who's going to stick their neck out and say, Arun should be promoted, and we need to do that quickly. We need to recognize his talents, and we need to put some action against that so that we show him the value he's obviously bringing to the company, but also just in this year notion of retention. So they're both really critically important, but they're both a little different. And I think that the selection of a mentor can sometimes be very formal. You know, your company may assign you a mentor, but some of the best mentors out there do it naturally. It just happens naturally. You might actually have an assigned mentor, but find that you align yourself with somebody else in the organization or somebody else in the industry who you think is actually adding a lot more value to your professional life. 

Arun: I think that was very, very interesting and very enjoyable. Any words of advice you have for young career professionals? What should they be doing to set themselves up for a C-Suite career? 

Ann: Well, it's overly simplistic to say that you need to work hard, and you need to master the job that you're in. I think that has to be your foundation for a really long, sustainable, really fulfilling career is a foundation on the fact that you really worked hard, and you really added a lot of value to whatever the company's situation is. But beyond that, leadership really is a very selfless act when it's done very well. It's about making the people around you look better than you do. It's about teaching them and setting them up for success instead of worrying about your own success. And so it's those quiet moments that really sometimes define people. And there are magnificent examples in the hospitality industry of people for whom boards made really bold decisions to make them the CEO. Maybe they went from managing hundreds of people to now managing hundreds of thousands of people. And it wouldn't take too much research to figure out who those people are, but they have been exceptional leaders in the industry where boards took a chance on them because they demonstrated those leadership capabilities and those leadership skills throughout their whole career of helping to make and inspire and really develop other people outside of themselves. And so you don't necessarily have to have the most linear path of always having the perfect set of experiences to get that next big job. And I think that's where landing in the C-Suite really does come down too much more around leadership than it does around the specific experience you've had. 

Arun: You know, one of the very interesting things that I'm taking away among the many different lessons is that, and I mentioned this right at the very beginning, the gauntlet that they have to, you know, people have to go through to get these positions. But what would you say if you are somebody well established in your career? And if such an executive consultant, you know, calls you up, should you take that call? Why should you take that call? 

Ann: Well, I'm biased, but you should always take that call. I think it's because sometimes when your head is down and you are doing a phenomenal job and things are going well, that you can't always see the forest for the trees. And you think the things are going well, but you haven't thought about what might be beyond that, what might be creating just that extra special career experience. Or it could be as simple as you're taking that call so that you can help others to find a great opportunity. You're doing well and you actually don't want to make a move, but you do know other people that would be dying for that opportunity. And we admire those people just as much as the person who raises their hand to say, okay, I think I'd like to take a look at that opportunity. But networking beyond just the people that you work with day in and day out, whether or not they're executive search consultants like myself, leadership advisors, or, you know, other hiring executives in other companies, that it's really, really important to keep your network large. What we found during the pandemic was that there were people who were exceptionally loyal to their companies for 30 or 40 years, had never returned a call from someone like me, and then all of a sudden found themselves furloughed or laid off when they least expected it and had absolutely no idea how to get started. And it was so painful to watch. And I think that you can shortcut that by keeping those relationships in the network open. 

Arun: In summary, when Ann calls, please answer. 

Ann: Please do. 

Arun: Okay, so for a bit of fun, we wrap up each podcast with a quick round of questions. The first one, what did you dream of becoming when you were young? 

Ann: This is a funny story. I actually thought when I was very young that I wanted to be a veterinarian. And it was actually my local town veterinarian who took care of our dog who talked me out of it. But I did actually want to go into medicine and go into biomedical engineering when I was here at BU initially. And obviously, I haven't pursued that for five minutes. So it's been a great career in a completely different direction. 

Arun: When you leave office, what's your favorite leisure time activity? 

Ann: I think it's either cooking, which I really enjoy, or watching silly things on TV. Curled up on the couch with the dog, you know, kind of just literally letting my mind, you know, just go to silly places. It could be reality TV, it could be game shows, it could be fun dramas, but I do love movies and TV. 

Arun: As my son has very politely told me, that generation looks at Instagram and TikTok for those silly things. And he has a technical term for it. It's called doom scrolling. So maybe fry that sometimes. 

Ann: Well, I have to tell you, my daughter got me into TikTok when she was home during the pandemic. Now, my algorithm looks radically different than hers. But yeah, I end up watching great people who actually run phenomenal podcasts as well, like this one, as well as people who do great career coaching. And I also see cooking videos on there and dogs and kitties and all sorts of stuff. 

Arun: Since you'll be getting so many calls after this podcast, here's some helpful information for people who are going to have conversations with you. What is your least favorite word or phrase that you don't want to hear in the conversation? And I hope I didn't use that word. 

Ann: Gosh, I don't know that I have one. I don't know that there's a word, but I will say that a heavy dose of negativity really doesn't help you. Even if you're in a really bad situation at work, don't bring that into these conversations so much. You can allude to you wanting to be in a different situation, but hammering on that negativity never really ends very well. 

Arun: And anything that you really like in the conversations? 

Ann: Yes, I mean, I think energy, enthusiasm, passion comes through in all mediums. Email, phone calls, you know, the video interviews we do. It is contagious, and it's fun to listen to people that really love what they do and who have a lot of energy and enthusiasm for it. So bring it on. 

Arun: Fantastic. Thank you, Ann, for your commitment to BU and the School of Hospitality Administration. It's always a delight to talk with you. 

Ann: Thank you so much. Being part of the Advisory Board is really actually one of my favorite things in life right now. So thank you. 

Arun: Love that. And thank you for listening today to our Distinguished podcast.