Sharing Sonesta’s Secret with Vera Manoukian, Chief Operating Officer of Sonesta International Hotels

Vera Manoukian became COO of Sonesta at the height of Covid in 2020. Defying the odds in these recent turbulent years, the company has expanded globally from its start in a tiny Massachusetts seaside town in 1937 to become one of the largest and fastest-growing hospitality companies. What is the secret to this wild success? Honored as one of the 2022 Influential Women of Hospitality by Hotel Management Magazine, Vera is just the person to shed light on hospitality’s best-kept secret.

The “Distinguished” podcast is produced by Boston University School of Hospitality Administration.

Host: Arun Upneja, Dean
Producer: Mara Littman, Director of Corporate and Public Relations
Sound Engineer and Editor: Andrew Hallock
Graphic Design: Rachel Hamlin, Marketing Manager

Music: “Airport Lounge" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0

Transcript

Arun: Welcome to the Distinguished Podcast. I'm Arun Upneja, Dean of BU School of Hospitality Administration. Thank you for joining us. Today, our guest is Vera Manoukian. She is the Chief Operating Officer of Sonesta International Hotels. With over 1,100 locations across eight countries on three continents, Sonesta is one of the largest and fastest growing companies in our industry. Vera is a global hospitality trailblazer with more than three decades of hospitality experience in driving brand growth, maximizing operational excellence and delivering financial performance. In recognition of her many achievements, Vera was included as one of the 2022 influential women of hospitality by Hotel Management Magazine. We love Vera at our school, and we invite her for every single occasion we possibly can. She has been a guest speaker in our school's marquee events, the Dean's Distinguished Lecture Series, and the Hospitality Leadership Summit. I am thrilled to welcome Vera back to our school. Thank you for joining us again for the Distinguished podcast.

Vera: Thank you Dean. I'm flattered to be back. I appreciate you always thinking of me and I love BU and it's always good to come back home.

Arun: Chief Operating Officer is an impressive and daunting role at a company as large and growing as fast as Sonesta. So to start with in a nutshell, can you tell us what is this role? What do you do?

Vera: Yeah, so my role is a little unique and it's a bit of a hybrid role than a traditional Chief Operating Officer role. And one of the reasons that I did join Sonesta, it was for that exact same reason, because it wasn't just looking after operations and P&L responsibilities, it actually encompassed being in charge of brands, being in charge of marketing, being in charge of e-commerce, being in charge of the commercial team, which includes sales, revenue management. So it was a fairly large and fairly different role. And that's what excited me about joining Sonesta, that all of the things that I did in my previous life came together and got me ready to be Chief Operating Officer with a unique skill set and also overseeing majority of the departments at the company.

Arun: Fantastic. So you've been with Sonesta since 2020, the first year of Covid. And since that time, Sonesta has been growing at a rapid clip. Starting with 58 hotels when you first joined, you now have over 1100 locations across eight countries on three continents. That's incredible growth. So can you tell us how that growth came about?

Vera: So the interesting thing about that growth is that it all happened in three and a half months. So essentially, we were changing the engine of a plane while we were flying the plane. But it was really a fun and exciting opportunity. We had other management companies look after hotels that our owner SVC owned. And frankly, they defaulted on their agreement. And the management agreement was canceled. So SVC was in a great, great position that was confident that Sonesta would do an excellent job, as good as those other managers. And then after we terminated the agreement, the hotels were brought to Sonesta.

Arun: You acquired hotels from IHG, Marriott and Hyatt. That's a very daunting prospect to match the growth and the bookings that the hotels have with those chains.

Vera: Yeah, I think also, at the same time, we acquired Red Lion. So not only we got over 200 hotels from those three other companies, but we strategically purchased Red Lion because we saw not only Sonesta was capable of managing and leading those hotels with great brands, but at the same time, it was a wonderful strategy for us to grow in franchising for the first time, which we had never done before. So it definitely was quick growth, and with quick growth comes a lot of pain. However, you know, this happens once in a lifetime, and the opportunity to build an organization in such a quick time, and to have our fingerprints on the foundation of a company, it was really very exciting, unique. In a time when, if you remember, Dean, most companies and most organizations were in hospitality, including airlines, were scaling down. So we were in a complete opposite direction, scaling up, and in hiring mode. We went from 1,400 employees to 10,000. We went from essentially three brands nationally, in addition to two internationally, to now 19 brands. So it was growth on steroids, and it was very exciting, and it continues to be exciting and fun.

Arun: Outstanding. Now there are so many things here that we need to unpack, but first let's start with the culture. Now, when you started acquiring these companies and these hotels in such a rapid clip, Sonesta had its culture, and you probably had some ideas on how you want to shift that culture. And then suddenly now you have hotels coming from IHG, Hyatt, and Marriott, each with their own culture, and then over 900 with the Red Lion Group. With all of these masses swirling different cultures, what kind of issues did you face when you took all of these over?

Vera: So, getting the hotels and converting them, and literally many of them overnight and one night and doing it remotely was pretty tough, but the harder part was really blending five cultures into one. So, we had some of the hotels that teams came from brands that have been around for 100 years, which had pretty many policies and procedures on everything, and processes were very solid. We had some that came who didn't want to know any processes and policies and procedures and wanted to do their own thing. We had some that were very confused about what happened because this wasn't their choice. They came with the hotels. So the one thing we were very deliberate about during this whole time when all these team members were coming in from different companies to us is that we wanted our DNA and foundation to remain Sonesta's culture of caring.

And that was putting people first and making sure we listen and making sure we take care of our team members and our teams. Even though we went to 10,000, that we individualized each of those team members, and they're not just a number. And it was interesting that some folks came with some of the hotels that had been at a property for 30 years and have never seen opportunity for growth. So there was a lot of excitement about the growth in Sonesta and really taking these team members that were so dedicated and knowledgeable to the next level. Some of the things that we did to get through that difficult transition time, with blending different people from different backgrounds, is really sitting and listening and talking. We had things such as coffee chats, focus groups, conversations one-on-one to listen about things that were painful, things that we could have done better, things that we needed to change.

And one of the most important things that I believe has made our transition successful as we continue to evolve and grow is listening and having the ability to pivot quickly when things aren't good. Because typically when you grow, you have a strategy, a plan, and you grow. We grew and started developing our strategy after. And we also, a lot of the work that we continue to do is very much foundational and typically it's the other way around. So listening, reacting really quickly was critical to where we are today. And most of the team appreciated that, but we also had some turnover. People that were looking for policies and procedures that weren't even written and were very uncomfortable in that environment had decided to leave. And that's some of the things that happens when you're integrating companies and you're growing quickly. I call us the 80-year startup because Sonesta has been around for a very, very long time.

And our key is as we continue to grow and now that we're the eighth largest hospitality company in the US is never to lose that and not become this big bureaucratic company where you need a committee of 10 every time a decision needs to be made. And when you realize that you made an error or maybe not the best decisions, that you can't pivot quickly. So that's really very important to us that if we fail, we fail fast, we learn, and we keep going.

Arun: Outstanding. So I'm sure that when you were going on a listening tour, you talked about your own story and your own background dealing with different cultures. I'm sure that resonated with people and sort of helped you in that process.

Vera: Oh, absolutely, Dean. Because I think when you tell a general manager that you've walked in their shoes, and I'm not some consultant who's listening to them and giving them advice or putting a deck together to help them, when they know that I grew from a line level employee to be a supervisor, assistant department head, department head, general manager, and above, I think people appreciated that I understood the challenges they were facing, and I always tell my team and corporate, the cash registers at the hotels. So we have to listen to our general managers. We have to listen to our teams that are responsible for acting on our strategies and be able to support and get things out of the obstacles out of their way. So I think having a team that comes from a significant hotel background, which is the team that I built when I got to Sonesta, was really very productive, and people could relate to us, and we could relate to the GMs and understand the pain points that they're going through.

Arun: You mentioned the culture of caring that Sonesta has always had, but you also mentioned that it was, it had been in existence for a long time, but it didn't have, since it was a small company, a whole lot of bureaucratic procedures. So, you had to develop all of those procedures. So, you borrowed, I'm assuming, from all the different systems that you saw?

Vera: Yeah, you know, I think one of the reasons that we are where we are today, and we were able to build a company so quickly in a very short time, is because I hired a tremendous team, and many of the team members I hired, I worked with before. So, that team was able to come in and really look at, and we also built up organizations from scratch. There was no commercial team. There was a very, very small marketing team, and we had three brands, but they were brands in name. So, we had to build everything from scratch, and we had to, as we were building these teams, we built operating teams, looked at what policies existed, and if they were scalable, if they were not, we had to start all over again. So, for example, we also built a call center and also a sales call center in Orlando.

So, standing up those organizations and building policies and processes, it goes back to me saying that, you know, changing the engine while you're flying a plane, but I'm so proud of the team that I put together because even today, we continue to do foundational work. For example, we launched our first mobile app a year ago. So, we never had a mobile app. We've just launched our big marketing campaign with Hollywood, Judy Greer, in January. Sonesta had never done that. So, there's so many firsts that we have done since, you know, all this integration started in December 2020. And I have to say that as cumbersome as it was, it was my unbelievable, my passionate, my dedicated, my amazing team that is really helping us get to where we are today. Of course, in addition to our leaders, operation leaders, the general managers who bring all these things to life each and every day.

Arun: Like you said, this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and I think you're very fortunate, and the company is very fortunate to have you putting all of this in place. And for people who are outside observing, it's a very exciting time to watch Sonesta grow and become one of the major companies in the field. So one of the things that I want to sort of ask you, and you mentioned you started with three different brands that Sonesta had, and now you mentioned 19 brands. So there are a couple of chains, won't take any names, but much bigger than Sonesta. There are dozens and dozens of brands. If you go and ask the company, the company executives, how do you differentiate each brand? And they have a hard time describing each one and the unique features of each brand. So what is your brand strategy?

Vera: Yeah, so I think we're definitely not in the business of adding brands for the sake of adding brands. We listen to the customer quite a bit. All the work that we did, including the brand positioning work and what type of brands we need came from the voice of the customer and also from the voice of the franchisees that we're starting to do business with for Sonesta franchisees. So we knew immediately that we needed a mid-scale brand. We knew immediately that we needed a lifestyle brand. So we had gaps in the markets where customers were looking for those products. And we knew that in order for us to grow, we had to build those brands. We are in the process of launching two soft brands. And that's, you know, owners have come to us and said, you know, we don't like hard brands.

We also don't like the fact that the big brands have so many demands on us. And so rigid to do business with and with all these brand standards. So we are in the process of creating an upper upscale soft brand and a mid-scale soft brand. So our strategy is to listen really to the voice of the franchisee and to the customer and have products that are available that fits the needs of the traveler, whether it's economy and all the way to upper upscale. We still have a gap in luxury. So we're having conversations about what do we do about that.

So you never know, more to come. But we're very excited about the portfolio of brands that we have because we feel that it fits the needs of what's needed in the market. Another one that we just created recently is the Essential Brand, Sonesta Essential. And again, franchisees came to us and said your select brand has a very complicated food and beverage. We would like to have a brand that goes after that mid-scale market that has just breakfast. And we didn't have an offering to fill that gap. And now that's, I would say that that's the top brand that our franchise team is signing deals for because it came from the franchisees. So we're very big on any initiatives, whether it's brands or whether it's products or whether it's any offering that we have that we listen to the voice of the customer. Because at the end of the day, they are the ones who are going to pay for it. So and also listen to our owners and put products out there that are strategic and also things that they're telling us is needed in the market.

Arun: I would love to ask you, which is your favorite brand out of them. But I know that you're going to have a hard time with that question. So can you just very briefly describe what is the James and the Mod?

Vera: So I can't talk about the Mod because we haven't released it yet. It's one of the soft brands that we're about to launch. But it's again, it will go after an upscale brand that will probably contribute to compete with a tribute brand, for example, with Marriott. So it will help the owners talk about, you know, keep the hotel, keeps its identity. But the hotel will be known as the, let's say, the Vera Hotel, which will be a Mod hotel, obviously a typical soft brand. And the hotel will be plugged in into our distribution system. So I can't tell you about it before we tell the world and also internal customers. But that's just about all I can say. In terms of the James brand, the James brand is our lifestyle slash luxury brand. Not full luxury, but we saw that we had a gap there. And it was a brand that existed before when we purchased the New York hotels from the Denny and family. They had the intellectual property for that brand. And having the fact that I worked there for a year, I know that brand very intimately. And then it had a great cache. It had a great following, great reputation. And it was present in markets that we have presence in, or we want to have presence in, like New York and Chicago and DC and Miami. So we found a great hearing, again, from customers that they would like a lifestyle brand. And also from owners, we thought it's great for us to purchase the intellectual property of that brand.

So we look at the James brand as it's a timeless brand. So it's not those flash-in-the-pans lifestyle brands that is hot today and not tomorrow and people get tired of it. But really taking about, you know, what's traditional and putting a modern twist to it. For example, instead of a shoeshine, we have a sneaker shine. It's a brand that's very much focused on food and beverage, or we call it beverage and food for that particular brand. And the food and beverage would not be just a hotel restaurant that offers three meals and that's it. But it's really a destination in itself where not only it's unique for our internal guests, but also for the community. So working with known operators that are able to drive business into those food and beverage. So those are some of the things that this brand offers. And, you know, one of the things that we're very, very excited about is that we just purchased a hotel in Miami right on South Beach. And within probably the next 12 hours, it will be a Sonesta Hotel. So we'll be taking it over shortly. So newsflash. And then and right now it's the Nautilus Hotel. And the plans are after renovation, it will be the James Miami. So we're really, you know, big on growing that brand. So currently we have the James Nomad, which is a licensing agreement in New York. We're looking at having a James in Chicago and a James in DC. The one in Chicago would be in the next few months. And then in DC would be sometime next year.

Arun: Congratulations.

Vera: Thank you.

Arun: So another very recent addition to Sonesta portfolio is your Sonesta Work Suite. So can you briefly describe it’s kind of blends traditional office and co-working space? So can you talk a little bit about that and tell us what it is?

Vera: Yeah, so the Work Suite, again, it came from customer research. So it was an idea that our innovation team and many of us worked on. Even before Covid, customers were saying that we're tired to have small and medium-sized meeting in these beige boxes on eight to six-foot tables and these very uncomfortable banquet chairs for six to eight hours sometimes. So we really wanted to look at how do we reinvent the small meeting room experience. And obviously with Covid and having the virtual component play into it, that really changed some things as well. So when we listened to the customer, the customer said we're tired of the beige box, the gray box, the white box, whatever you want to call it. So design played a key in the Work Suite. So we wanted to make sure that design is not one design is the same, that is really inspired by the local destination. We also wanted to put in different zones in the Work Suite, where you have an ability to have a meeting.

You're also in the same room, you have an ability to go brainstorms in different areas. You have the ability to recharge, and you have the ability to do work alone if you want to. And also, you know, we tried it many times with my team. The setting is really important because it also has an area where there's comfortable lounge seating, where you sit to have a group discussion. And somehow, the environment lends itself for people to be open and honest, to have conversations in a more relaxed environment versus sitting in a very disciplined environment. So we have the four work zones that incorporate, you know, in the design piece. The other piece was important, is the technology piece. I know that, you know, in addition to sitting in those boring meeting rooms, you know, there's all these extension cords and the tape to the floor and the AV person comes in if something doesn't work. So do we have really tackled that issue by offering a technology that is super intuitive, that is very easy to use, that is very, you know, savvy technology. We have now, especially with all these virtual meetings, high-resolution screens. We have audio and video built into the room, so anyone can use it. It's also included in the pricing of the meeting room, so that, you know, this AV bill doesn't cost you thousands of dollars.

The other thing is the food and beverage offering. You know, customers told us that we, you know, we order a breakfast or a lunch that's in and then it be taking out within an hour. And, you know, if we want to have a snack, we have to pay on for an extra coffee break. So we have food and beverage in a pantry style that is always on. And, you know, every single diet restriction is included there, whether it's gluten free or vegan or everything. So it's all included in that. So the food and beverage are very unique. At the same time, we have also some experiential elements like puzzles and quizzes. It's kind of to intrigue, generate conversations and also brain teasers, so that we also have some installations on the walls that is supposed to help you get more creative and have more fruitful discussions in the room.

Last but not least, customers told us that, you know, every time they have to book a small meeting, they have to call the sales department, they have to get a BEO, they have to sign it. So we took all that friction away by having the ability to have book online. You can book it by the hour, so you don't have to talk to anybody. You get on our website or you do it through a C-Vent, and you're able to book the room, and you're able to handle all your billing and everything else. So we took all that friction away by listening to the customers. So we had the first one open in our vine earlier this year, and we're getting great feedback from customers. And one of the things that we do is that when we launch things, we start with one or two, get customer feedback, iterate them, and then as we improve from the feedback, we roll them out in other hotels. So we have three more that we're rolling out later this year, including the one in our brand new hotel, which is being built, which will be open in September in DC which is the cap, the Royal Sonesta Capital Health.

Arun: Outstanding. The way you described the meeting room, I feel like I need to go and see it. So Irvine is open now and DC will be opening in September.

Vera: In September, and Charlotte and Nashville and White Plains will be opening later this year as well.

Arun: I want to pivot to loyalty programs. As you are growing, it may not have been that important when you were only 58 hotels, but now with 1100 plus hotels and growing fast, you need customers, not just repeat customers, but they should become brand ambassadors as well. So, I'm curious to know your philosophy towards loyalty programs. Do you see them as necessary evil, something that you have to offer, or are you thinking of loyalty programs as a distinctive feature of Sonesta?

Vera: So, sadly, it's a necessary... You know, and as a loyalty junkie myself, so I can definitely put myself into our customer shoes and understand how important it is. You know, I wish we could not have a loyalty program, but for us to be competitive and be able to attract, and particularly that business traveler, it's a must today. And the customers have told us that. And that's why we just did a soft launch of our new loyalty program with a big launch that we will do in Q4, with a big marketing push. And our program, I find it's very unique to, in terms of that it's not a burden to the owners. From a cost perspective, we're being sensitive to the cost to the owner. At the same time, it's an easy program to follow to the customers, so that you have the ability to move in between tiers faster, faster than other programs, so you can get to that elite status and start earning benefits and enjoy the experiences that each level offers.

Arun: Let's turn to another huge, big issue that we have in our industry and pretty much in every facet of economic life in the United States now, which is hiring and retaining talent. So are you facing issues as well as everyone else is in terms of hiring and retaining talent?

Vera: I think everybody is, regardless of whether you're in hospitality or not. And we all went through the pain point, especially during Covid and as also Covid subsided. I don't know what happened to everybody that used to work, but they're not around. But we had to pivot. And then just like anything else, as we did our research, we realized that our number one source of team members is through referrals. And so we're really focusing on referral and obviously to give incentives for folks to refer at any level of the company. We obviously had to adjust our wages on multiple occasions because we weren't just competing with other hospitality companies. We were competing with Amazon and Walgreens. So that we're paying so much higher. So we had to continuously adjust our wages. We are currently doing a lot of workshops. We're hiring centers in order to attract team members. So it's an ongoing challenge. It has subdued though from a year ago when it was virtually impossible to get anybody. So we're encouraged by the positive change. And hopefully it will continue to be heading in the right direction.

Arun: In addition to the challenges of hiring and retaining, and you have to increase salaries and wages to continue to attract them, the rapid increase in inflation is also kind of putting a dent in what the take home pay and how far it goes. And so that's probably adding pressure to your payroll as well, right?

Vera: It is, it definitely is, as I think is affecting every business, because the cost of, whether it's utilities or cost of goods sold or payroll, is increased dramatically. So it definitely puts a lot of pressure on us to perform. I think the one thing you mentioned, Dean, to go back to the hiring piece, the retention piece is critical. Because I think that even though you may have someone who may leave for, because they get a dollar extra or so forth, across the street or somewhere else, but I think creating great work environment where you build that loyalty and you take care of our team member, which goes back to culture of caring, is critical, because people want to be recognized. People want to have a sense of belonging, and people have to have a sense of that their opinion matters and they're making a difference. I think along with a great recruiting effort, but also the retention piece is also very important, because if you don't fix the retention piece, you're going to be recruiting each and every day, and you're not going to be able to get ahead. So it definitely is an interesting time in the hospitality business or any type of business between recruiting, between retention, between inflation, but we'll get through it.

Arun: How aggressive are you in terms of artificial intelligence or robotics to sort of help with the needs of having more workers?

Vera: Yeah, so our innovation team has done a lot of good work in those areas. So we're testing robots now in two of our hotels, at our Miami Airport Hotel and our San Juan Hotel. And our key there is to help take some of the redundant work away from the team members alleviating things that a robot can do. But also at the same time, we want to make sure that it's a great customer experience. And so we're excited about that test and more to come. And if it's successful, we will make that as part of an offering to any hotel that we can do that in. The other thing is we're using AI in a couple of areas which has been successful. We use an upsell program. And in the past, the upsell program, so say you make a reservation, and you may get an email that says, hey, for another $50 or $100, you may get a suite. And it was randomly sent to everyone. Or if you come to the front desk, the person was trained to say that we have an upgraded room. So now the upselling is based on AI. So based on your buying habits, based on your history, based on what you browsed for. So it's really very targeted. So we're not sending the same thing to everybody.  So it's very customized based on AI information to say, this person likes sweets, this person always looks for sweets, or they're searching for a sweet. So you're served up a sweet because you're the target customer. The other thing is we're looking at right now is reviews are so critical, right?

So in any type of reviews, whether it's through third parties, Google, or whatever. And that's how I shop. And that's how I look when I'm familiar with a destination product or whatever the case may be. And sometimes answering those reviews is really very challenging. So we're starting to look at opportunities to how do we use AI to help us answer and help us identify themes in those reviews that we're seeing defects, whether it's service or whether it's a product. So in order for us not only respond to the customer, but also at the same time go back to the root cause of the problem, identify what's wrong, and if there's a certain theme at a hotel to say, you know, why is this situation happening? So we're excited about the opportunities that AI is going to give us to really not only improve efficiency, but help us provide better experience to the customer because we have better information about what we're doing right, what we're doing wrong, or what we can do to improve their experience.

Arun: So Vera, I want to pivot to you a little bit, and you were recently recognized as one of the 2022 influential women of hospitality by the Hotel Management Magazine. Congratulations.

Vera: Thank you.

Arun: Can you talk about who your mentors have been in your journey through the hospitality industry, and what have you learned from them?

Vera: Yeah, I've been very blessed. I've had many mentors that I've had throughout my career. Some have been my direct bosses. Some have been some owners that I've developed great relationship with. Others have been friends that have been successful in careers that they've had. I feel as a leader, regardless of where you are in your career, the beginning, in the middle, or towards the end, having a mentor is key because I think it's always important to have someone or some folks that you're able to talk through things, especially when things aren't going your way. Sometimes I think when we're looking at a problem, we get emotions involved, we're not looking at things objectively. I think in my case, mentors have helped me deal with issues and by taking a step back and saying, how can I look at a problem differently and not take it so personally? Also in career choices, mentors have been incredibly helpful.

Even with the Sonesta role, even with the Hilton role, when I went from ops to brands, I was like, can I do this? This is such a shift in my career. It's like going to be walking with two left feet and mentors are able to walk you through things. I always say lift the fog when there's confusion in your brain or in front of you. At the same time, I think mentors also, I appreciate them because they're brutally honest and sometimes tell you things that you kind of in the back of your head, but it's better when someone says it to you and then it may not be great when you hear it, but it's something to act on and change when you realize that you could handle things differently and approve upon.

Arun: What's your advice to rising leaders?

Vera: My goodness. I can talk for an hour about that, but I know we don't have an hour. You know, I always start when I'm asked that question, is with learn, learn, learn. Be curious. Don't accept things. Always don't say, don't, when someone tells you no, always say why not. Learning, I think, is so critical because, and the earlier you start, the better, because you learn and you put things in your toolbox and you never know when you need them again. I learned about food and beverage almost 30 years ago when I was a banquet manager, and that experience in food and beverage for two years, that when I was in banquets, to this day helps me when I look at a P&L and I see a problem with profitability, I know where to go, right? I know if there's a beverage cost problem, what do I do? There's a food cost problem, what do I do? Labor problem, what do I do? Average check problem, what do I do? So I think we don't stress enough to learn, to try different things, be a sponge and take it all in because, again, it helps you in the future in terms of other opportunities that you may get. The second thing I always say is that learn how to deal with change. If you don't change, you die. And Covid told us so many things, right? And every day things change. Companies get acquired. Look what happened with us with acquiring back those hotels. Bosses change, brands change, life changes. And if you're not able to deal with change and if you get stuck in your ways, unfortunately, the individual is going to go through a lot more of a painful process because there's one thing about change is that it's constantly changing. So that's really, really important. A couple of other things that I think especially this generation, because when I interview younger team members that are interviewing, they never ask me about the existing job. They ask me what's next.

When do I get to your job and how quickly do I get promoted? And sometimes I think people look at growing, just looking up a ladder. And I say that don't look at it as a ladder. Look at it as scaffolding, right? Because sometimes you have to go, just don't think that you have to always get promoted. Sometimes going to other areas with the same title and doing something equivalent to what you're doing, but in a different department is not definitely a promotion, makes you the stronger for down the road. Similar to me, for example, when I was at Ops and I went to a brand role, I was like, well, it's the same title. But, you know, so I was so caught up on that it was an SVP and it wasn't anything bigger. But I am not till my mentor helped me see it is that this is someone's willing to take a chance on me that I've never worked a day in brands and I'm going to go be a global brand leader. That do I understand how important that is and how great that is. So, you know, taking a side role or a sidestep sometimes makes you stronger. And again, things happen for a reason. I'm such a big believer that I would not be in this role had I not done that. But at the time, I was looking at titles and saying, well, I need to go up a ladder. Like, you know, if I take an SVP role, it's really not the same. 

And last but not least, I've been thinking about this topic a lot. Actually, I had a conversation yesterday with one of my team members. It's what is your personal brand? And I always say, you're going to have a brand whether you like it or not. So, build your own personal brand and be intentional about it. So, you know, who do you want to be? What do you stand for? What do you do? And so, when somebody mentions the word Vera, you know, what is my brand? Is it someone that I walk to talk? Is it someone that I exude trust? Is it someone that I can be thrown anywhere and I will figure out a problem and get it done? So, I think those are things that as people are growing within, you know, any type of industry and hospitality especially is to really be deliberate about, you know, when someone mentions your name, what do they say about you and be very intentional about it. And even in your work, if you put five CEOs next to each other, how are you going to stand out, right? I stand out because I know marketing and brands and commercials, so it's not just the P&L management. But, you know, again, how do you stand out in that sea of sameness so people say, I want to go with that person because they can bring so much more to the table. 

Arun: Learn, learn, learn, be comfortable and excited about change. The scaffolding approach, don't be fixated on titles, then create a personal brand. Outstanding lessons for anyone listening. So thank you, Vera. But for fun, we are not done yet. I have a speed round of quick questions. So let's start. Which Sonesta Hotel would you go to and in which location?

Vera: I really like the Royal Sonesta in San Juan, Puerto Rico. I love the hotel, the setting that it's in. I love its access to the beach. The beach is absolutely beautiful. But what I like the most is that team and the service that they provide. They're ten steps ahead of the guests. They anticipate the customer's needs. And every person that I've sent there or people that go there on vacation come back with truly being experienced a wow experience. So that's a place that I go to regularly for meetings and I would go there for personal vacation.

Arun: Outstanding. OK, so the last question I have is if you could have dinner with one dinner and you could invite anyone past a present living or not living, who would that be and why?

Vera: So my answers are a little bit different, but I really would like to have dinner with Jesus, Muhammad, and Moses. I believe that they have so much to do, they're the prophets of today's religions. And I'm sure when they were the leaders of these religions, they expected peace, love, tranquility, and have a lot of wisdom. I would love to ask them, what do they think about all of that today? And as they may be watching from above, you know, did they ever think we would get to where we are today in conflicts and so much turmoil around the world? And some of them, for reasons such as religion, part two of my question would be what wisdom do they can provide to all of us today in every corner of the world to bring some sanity back, to bring some tranquility back, to bring less anxiety and less turmoil to the world? And I would love to have dinner with them in Lebanon, where I was born and raised, because most of them have been through Lebanon, all of them actually, all three of them, and somewhere on the beach where it's peaceful and most of the conflict exists in that area and understand how they can help us in today's world.

Arun: Bravo. Thank you, Vera. It was a pleasure to talk to you today, as always.

Vera: Thank you, Dean. This was awesome.

Arun: So thank you for joining us today. Special thanks to the team who produced this podcast, Mara Littman, Andy Hallock, and the entire team at Boston University School of Hospitality Administration. To keep up with Distinguished podcasts, be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. You can also learn more about our undergraduate and graduate programs at Boston University School of Hospitality Administration by visiting bu.edu/hospitality. Thank you.