Jen Ziskin, Executive Director of Mass Restaurant United: Advocating on Wages, Fees, and Workforce So Independent Restaurants Can Thrive

Restaurants are more than places to eat. They are where communities gather, cultures are shared, and everyday moments become lasting memories. But behind every restaurant is a complex reality, rising costs, workforce challenges, and shifting consumer expectations. 

In this episode of The Distinguished, Dean Arun Upneja welcomes Jen Ziskin, Executive Director of Mass Restaurant United and co-owner of La Morra and Punchbowl in Brookline, MA. With a background in education, restaurant ownership, and statewide advocacy, Jen brings a rare perspective on what it takes to sustain independent hospitality. 

They cover the wage gap between front and back of house, the fight against junk fee legislation, credit card processing fees on tips and taxes, immigration’s role in restaurant culture, real estate challenges, Gen Z dining shifts, tipping fatigue, mental health resources, and the promise and limits of AI in operations. 

Email us at shadean@bu.edu 

Learn more about Mass Restaurants United  

The “Distinguished” podcast is produced by Boston University School of Hospitality Administration.  

Host: Arun Upneja, Dean 

Producer: Mara Littman, Executive Director of Strategic Operations and Corporate Relations 

Research and Content Creation: Lan Lu

Editing: Isabella Laikin 

Music: “Airport Lounge" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0 

The “Distinguished” podcast is produced by Boston University School of Hospitality Administration. 

Host: Arun Upneja, Dean
Producer: Mara Littman, Executive Director of Strategic Operations and Corporate Relations
Research and Content Creation: Lan Lu
Marketing: Anne Dawson
Editing: Isabella Laikin and James Leon

Music: “Airport Lounge" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0

Transcript

Introduction & Welcome

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Restaurants are more than places to eat. They are where communities gather, where cultures are shared, and where everyday moments turn into lasting memories. But behind every restaurant is a complex reality. Owners balancing rising costs, workforce challenges, and shifting consumer expectations, all while trying to preserve the human connection that defines hospitality. And increasingly, the future of restaurants is being shaped not just inside the dining room, but through advocacy, community, and leadership beyond it. Today's guest sits at the intersection of all three. Jen Ziskin is the executive director of Mass Restaurant United, an organization founded to support and advocate for independent restaurants across Massachusetts. She's also a restaurant owner herself, co-owning La Mora in Brookline, a beloved neighborhood restaurant, as well as another concept within a short walking distance, Punch Bowl. In addition, Jen is a leader in Let's Talk Women, a community dedicated to supporting and advancing women in hospitality. With a background in education and a deep commitment to mentorship, Jen brings a unique perspective on leadership, one that is grounded in community, resilience, and the belief that restaurants are essential for how we connect with one another. I'm Arunapaneja, Dean of Boston University School of Hospitality, host today, and Jen Ziskin. Welcome to the Distinguished Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Thank you for having me. Excited to be here. I always love being at BU.

Jen's Journey — From Server to Restaurant Owner

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Okay, so you are co-owner of a restaurant, as I just mentioned. And the longevity of the restaurant, I think you established that in 2003.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

2003, so 22 years, but I always say it's like dog years in the restaurant business. So I do make this joke a lot, but it's like a hundred years.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Yeah, so so many years is is kind of. So why don't you give us a little bit of a background, your background and your background as a restaurant?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

I always say yes, cut me off if you need to, because it goes way back. I started working in restaurants when I was 15 years old, you know, started in the front of the house, busing, food running, the gamut, moved to cocktail serving, bartending, waitressing. And then I went to school, went to college, always worked during college, but I always worked in restaurants just to make money. It wasn't necessarily like I wanted to own a restaurant one day. I loved every minute of it. I love that connection you have, that community that you have as well. And then when I graduated college, I was trying to look for something to do, didn't know quite what I wanted to do. So I was looking for a serving job, stumbled into a place in Concord, I Go Bistro. They were not looking for a server, they were looking for an assistant manager. And that's really where where the that's where the leadership part of my career took off. So started as an assistant manager there, worked there, ended up having to be the general manager very soon after becoming assistant manager because of some health issues that were at the restaurant. And then it just took off. I'd started there and then was doing that for a while. They opened a restaurant in Concord. I mean, they opened a restaurant in Cambridge, decided to not manage anymore because I really had no background on managing. But I always loved events and marketing, so I started doing outreach for them to help their restaurant take off with events. And I worked there and then decided I did not want to work nights and weekends anymore. Maybe I would go back to school. And I ended up going back to school for teaching. And so then I taught. Then I went back to school for teaching, got my graduate degree, of course, worked in restaurants, Cheonri, while I was doing it. Uh, worked at Campania in Waltham when they opened that up, some really fabulous restaurants at the time. And then I went into teaching in Brookline and taught history for seven years. In the high school? Um I was in the middle school. Middle school. Middle school, yes. I was at the Baker School, loved it. I did a lot of that um role-playing type of teaching. We would reenact the roaring 20s, really loved every minute of it. I had met my husband Josh, I left that out. We met when I was maybe 21, right out of college, and our moms were best friends back in the day. They grew up together, grandmothers fixed us up. We have that total romance, romantic story. We feel like we were an arranged marriage in many ways. But he always wanted to open a restaurant since he was 15 years old. So after we got married, we moved to Italy, and I had just graduated Leslie University, so had my graduate degree in education, moved to Italy, he worked in a restaurant there, and I nannyed for a wine family. So I nannyed at a winery and did that while we lived there. We lived there for six months and learned all about wine. I also was teaching English to some actually famous winemakers as well. And then he was doing, um, he was working in a restaurant, and when we got home, um, it was about, I guess it was stopped there for a moment. That's a lot. Do you want me to keep going? But I can go with the and we had our kids. So wait, what one very, very interesting thing. That's what I said, cut me off long career.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

One very interesting thing that I heard was arranged marriage. Yeah. Coming from India, that sounds wonderful, fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

I I should not joke about that, but we do feel like it's true. So his um our grandmothers were best friends, and I grew up in Plymouth, Josh's mom grew up in Plymouth, my mom grew up in Plymouth, and Josh grew up in Brookline. So, but he would come home and he would go to high holidays in Plymouth. So I always saw him at the temple. And later, after we graduated college, he was working in restaurants, I was working in restaurants, so our grandmothers said we had to meet each other. And sure enough, we hit it off, and that was it. We never dated another person since.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

I love those grandmothers. Great.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

They're the best.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

They are the best, yep. And and they did good.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

They sure did. I mean, now 28 years old. 28 years later.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah, they they they knew both of you, both the grandmothers knew you. Excellent. Okay, so let's go back to the restaurants. Um, so essentially, um uh acquisition costs for new customers are usually much higher than retention. So if you have somebody who's already come and tried out your restaurant, then it's much easier to get them to come back again rather than try to get new. So with your with the longevity history that you have with your restaurant, how do you do that? How do you keep customers coming back to your restaurant again and again?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Um it's that's a great question. It's consistency, it's feeling like that, you know, that cheers mentality, everybody knows your name. I used to take amazing notes in when we had open table, now we have resie that would just track their behavior and little things, birthdays, children, and just that little memory recall. And now, I mean, my staff, they it's a seamless the way they run things is seamless. They do such a great job. They just make people feel at home. We've always wanted to be a home away from home. And it's all word of mouth. We do not do any advertising. So we do a lot of community support, we do a lot of donations for nonprofits for our our guests, you know, for our guests who reach out to us, but we really do no advertising at all. I wish I were better at social media too.

Mass Restaurant United — Mission & Advocacy

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Okay, so let's pivot a little bit with your other role that you have. Um, you are the executive director of Mass Restaurant United. So um, for those that are unfamiliar with this organization, tell us a little bit about what is MRU, what are its aims and missions, and what does it do?

SPEAKER_01 8:03

So um Mass Restaurant United was formed during COVID to help independent restaurants really survive through COVID. It was a group of chefs and restaurateurs who got together as our founding members. And we have now grown over the years in the past five years to be a coalition that offers advocacy, community, and education to independent restaurants all across Massachusetts. It's an amazing organization. I want to highlight, first of all, I mean, I always highlight the advocacy, but the community as well. It just is so welcoming, and we do these outreach events all across Massachusetts to kind of spread the word on how important, as you had mentioned in the beginning, how important independent restaurants are to our culture, our community, and to our state as well, and to our country.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

So uh, since this is a very new organization established during the pandemic, five, six years, so what what happened? Why did the independent restaurants feel the need to have their own? There are many other organizations that are supporting restaurants.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Absolutely. Um, so there's Mass Restaurant Association, which is a great organization. My restaurants have been a part of that for many years. But there are different needs when you have an independent restaurant, a mom and pop-run type of restaurant. Often your needs align with what chain restaurants or large food service organizations might need. But there is just this special attention that's needed for these independent restaurants that might be different, and they don't always align. So we really feel like this separate advocacy group is very important for independent restaurants.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

And it's all across Massachusetts?

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Everywhere, yes. And we've now done five outreach events across Massachusetts, and people are really getting to know us and joining. We doubled our membership in the last year.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

How many members do you have now?

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Um so we have over 450 members. We have over 2,000 followers and subscribers, but we're really working. I think a lot of people think that they're members because they get our emails, they see us on social media, they come to our amazing events. But actually, our organization is driven by membership, and we're really hoping to convert all of those subscribers to be members.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Well, there might be some subscribers to your emails that are just, you know, they love restaurants and they are supporters or they're allies. So, but 450 restaurants, that's that's that's a very good achievement.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

450 members. Members. So we don't have to be able to do that. There's some allies and buyers and so forth. Exactly. And now what we've done is an outreach to our the employees as well. And we have a workers' advocacy committee as part of the organization because it is the big picture. I mean, during the pandemic, it was like we just needed these restaurants to survive, so it was very owner-centric. But now we're moving past that, and we need to look at the whole picture and really the ethos of the restaurant business, and that's incredibly important to us. So we really want that workers' advocacy voice to be part of

The Tip Credit Debate & Ballot Question 5

SPEAKER_01 11:18

it.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

So, since you mentioned workers' advocacy as well, let's talk about what happened a couple of years ago with uh with the famous question number five on the ballot. Um, so in Massachusetts, um, we all know that the tips cannot be shared with back of the house, and the servers, those who are getting tips, they are getting paid from the employer a wage that is less than the minimum wage with the expectation that they will make that up in the tips, and if they don't make up, the employer is responsible. But that um that campaign, which failed, by the way, I'm sure, thanks to in part to your advocacy, strong advocacy. Yeah. Um, but that kind of did highlight the the difference between the total hourly earnings at the front of the house and back of the house. So, how do independent restaurants try to take care of that gap?

Front of House vs Back of House Pay Gap

SPEAKER_01 12:13

We are struggling. It is, you know, it is really a challenging question that we are talking about every day and every time we meet in this committee because the major problem is running an independent restaurant now, the numbers are not working, and the pie is only so big. So the only way that we can make this work is to charge an exorbitant amount for our menu. And I know it seems like an easy solution to just raise the prices, but the amount you have to raise to be able to compensate the front of the house and the back of the house the same, that's saying about probably $40 an hour, $50. Many restaurants, you know, the front of the house is making even a lot more than that. You just would have to increase your prices to, you know, $150 a menu item. I don't even, I haven't done the math. It's just, it's not realistic. Unfortunately, it's how our business model was created based on the way we are paying the front of the house and the back of the house. And I mean, even just in the evolution of Lamora, we started at $263 an hour for tipped employees and probably $15.16 an hour for restaurant, you know, for the um kitchen employees, and that's and you know, probably entry level. And now it's $675 for tipped employees. I mean, that's a big increase. I know it's been 20 years, but you can only increase your prices so much. And then back of the house to be competitive now, it's $20, $30. So it's just the numbers aren't working. There has to be some sort of shift. We had a great idea during the pandemic to charge a like a um kitchen appreciation fee. And a lot of people really liked that and embraced it. I would say we did we did do it at LaMora. And in the time we did it at LaMora, and that started during COVID, so in four years, maybe two people asked to have it removed. I mean, it was very transparent on the menu, on our website, on the receipt, but and people loved it and they would even give more. But now new legislation has come about where there's this junk fee legislation, so you can't charge an admin fee or a kitchen appreciation fee. It has to be rolled into your menu prices. Well, now your gratuity goes up. So the front of the house, if you do add it into your menu prices, which we have done, the front of the house is still making more because they're making the gratuity. So it's it's just this vicious cycle, and we are working really hard. We're open to many ideas. We're trying to hear from chefs, from dishwashers, from garmanger, what is the solution? And they really understand that the pie is only so big as well.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Right. Very interesting that the kitchen appreciation view also got caught up in the junk fee category.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yeah, there I mean, there really just seems to be something against being able to compensate the kitchen other than you know an hourly wage, which we we we do. Again, like it's just so if then we changed it to be the same wage for the front of the house and the back of the house, it would be you would have to lower their wage to be able to compensate for the front of the house to make the same that they're making, but they're not going to stay because that's not they can go elsewhere. I mean, they could go elsewhere, it's just it's just not what they're used to. Um, and I think it's just the culture, and I don't know if there's going to at one at some point be, you know, a an explosion of what the culture is. I d I don't know. Um, but it is across the country, and I just don't know how we can still get the amazing hospitality that is in our blood without having the tipping culture. But i there could be a solution out there. I don't want to say there isn't.

Third-Party Delivery Fees & Credit Card Processing

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Okay. Um so now let's talk about during the pandemic there was um, since people, you know, uh could not go to restaurants, so these third-party delivery companies started and and they were charging a lot of fees, and I don't know that you worked on the advocacy to cap those fees. Those gaps have gone away now, and those fees have risen. So now we have to think of a couple of different things. One is the survivability, the profitability of the independent restaurants, you have the third-party apps, they also are going to need money need to make money. Um, and then you have the this younger generation which thinks of this as a utility. They just sit in order. So, how do we, what do you think in the long term is going to happen to these three competing forces?

SPEAKER_01 16:51

It's tricky because we do understand, even with credit card companies, we understand they need to charge processing fees. It makes sense. But in Massachusetts, we're advocating for the fact that we are paying processing fees on tax and gratuity.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Why can't you then, at least for the gratuities part, and I know that you're not allowed to, but you know, that's what people will think. Why can't you just deduct the credit card rate before handing out the gratuity to the staff?

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Because you're not allowed to.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

You're not allowed to.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

I mean, for one reason, you're not allowed to. It's and again, it's not part of the culture. So it's like if you're doing these things that uh that isn't part of the culture, sure, if you're a brand new restaurant when you're hiring people, or if you bring on new people, that could be something you could, you know, bring into the conversation. But your staff that you've had for seven, eight years, like I'm fortunate enough to have staff that have been there, and all of a sudden I said, Oh, by the way, I'm gonna deduct 3% from your tips every week. So that's one thing. And then as far as processing fees in general, it's not allowed in our state. So that is another thing we're advocating for. You can't put the processing fee on a client using a credit card in Massachusetts, you can't put that back on the client. That being said, it's not an easy road to do either. Like if you're if everybody did it, sure, that's not a problem. But if one restaurant and then their next door neighbor doesn't charge processing fees, it's just not going to, it's not hospitable. It's not who we are.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Right. Also, very interesting that the credit card companies know what the tip is. They necessarily may not know the tax part because you know, beverages and food items are all taxed at different rates. So with that one amount, they don't know how much of that is taxed and how much is not untaxed is going to you, but they know the tips because that is a separate line item. So if the credit card companies did want to cooperate with you, they could they a thousand percent could, and a a lot of processors are point of sale systems too.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

So they do understand and they can they can set up the point of sale to line item it as well. It's possible. We have the technology. Um well in this in the state of Massachusetts, right now you can't, so there are certain things. But I guess yes, the processors could reduce the fees. You're right, that is true. Or eliminate it or get them on our side.

Removing the U.S. Citizenship Requirement for License Managers

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Okay, so um another thing, another big win that you had was um removing the U.S. citizenship requirement from uh alcohol license managers, so those managers who are managing this. So why did you do this and what does it mean in the long run?

SPEAKER_01 19:37

So I wasn't part of Mass Restaurant United at the time. I had just um I was coming onto the board right after that, but the whole process was going on while I was on the board, and I am just so proud of us for doing that because I think so. A manager who works in a restaurant doesn't own the restaurant, they're just managing the restaurant. If they didn't have citizenship, they couldn't be the manager of record on the license. So you're you're they are there the the most amount of time, so many owners would just stay as the the owner on that license because the manager couldn't. But it really wasn't following all the rules in that respect. So many non-citizens are managers and they're able, they have their legal, uh, they're legal working employees, but they weren't allowed to be the manager of records. So it was just a win in so many ways. For one, the humanistic value of it for me is the most important. It's why I'm advocating for our immigrant families so much. But also just the fact that many people didn't even know that that was an issue or that was not allowed. So it was a no-brainer. Of course, we would have our managers as the manager of records. So I think that it was just an advocacy that needed to be done, and you need to get the word out. And it was, like I said, the humanistic thing to do, but also the economic and also just proper, I can't think of the word, but like a proper thing for correct employment practices, because there's a lot of rules that go into managing a liquor license, and you want to be sure you're following all

Real Estate, Rent & Independent Restaurant Survival

SPEAKER_01 21:13

the rules.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Right. Okay, so you mentioned this earlier when I asked you about MRU versus other organizations. Um, commercial real estate costs continue to increase and rise dramatically all over. Um, anywhere you know you go and you look at urban centers, you see genification of them, you know, you see all these national restaurants. Whereas I love to see local uh community help people who are living in the community, you know, do those restaurants. But if you have a 30 seat local bistro competing against a well funded national group for the same um corner, you know, lot, what kind of policy change or tax change or what kind of change do you think is going to make the most difference to make that low? Restaurant owner or a bistro be competitive against these deep funded places?

SPEAKER_01 22:07

It's the biggest challenge that we're facing is real estate and rent and the price of rent and going into like you know these amazing places like Legacy Place or the street. And, you know, I think one thing getting the teamwork from the developers, like WS Development, our allied members of Mass Restaurant United, and they're trying to think of creative ways to help the independent restaurateur. And I think for Mass Restaurant United, we have to spread the word on what these high rents mean. There's a lot of like shared partnership rents, and you could be more of like an interest based on profit. Don't tell them that sometimes it's a nonprofit uh situation, especially with the numbers right now. But having some sort of relief on rent would help our independent restaurants probably the most. I will say, like at Lamora, we own our building. We're really fortunate. And I would give the advice to any independent restaurateur, if you have the opportunity to open a restaurant and own the real estate, that's a it's a win-win. It can be a struggle and really hard, but in the end, it just will it will create so much relief in the long run that you're not just doling out that money for rent. So I think cooperation with our cooperation with our landlords, and then more opportunity to be able to buy real estate for restaurants, which is the key to survival of independent restaurants. Because I mean, you want to have these smaller run non-chain places. There's just so much community, and not to say that chains don't have community and heart and great hospitality because they do. I love many of our restaurants that have multiple locations, but there's something to be said for that husband and wife team or wife team, and you know, there's just something to be said for that, the heart of those independent restaurants. Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

So um I'm just wondering, um, you know, for example, in terms of when I know in the city of Boston, if if any developer comes with a proposal to create, let's say, apartments, uh, city has some requirement that they have to be X percent that are rent controlled. I wonder if something similar, analogous could happen where there's a developer making development and you know, 20% of stores or space has to be locally, you know, non-chain kind of, so that you know you have a possibility of getting some relief on the rent.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Yeah, I think that's an interesting concept. I'm not going to say I'm an expert in this field. I just recently joined Chapa, who's working really hard for affordable housing, and it's very important for the restaurant industry because you want your employees to be able to live in the communities that they serve or near and not an hour and a half away. I mean, it's um we're not even asking for much. We're just even to have public transportation that's again not an hour and a half away. But so I think affordable housing is incredibly important, and advocating for it is important. Again, like I'm not an economist, I don't know how we can make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Right, but what I was saying was uh in a similar fashion, if you if you require any development to have 20% or any X percent stores that are locally owned rather than chains.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

I think that's a great idea. I think it's a move in the right direction. Again, they can only afford it if you give them the funding. I think grants are amazing. They helped us survive the pandemic and most restaurants as well that were able to lean on grants, even like $5,000 grants. Because, you know, there's also this whole dispute about rent control in itself. So we have to be careful how we go about that. I think you have to make it a way that it's not funded. Even the landlords, I mean, how are we going to be able, how are they gonna be able to afford a building if they can't charge rent? I mean, this we're all in business. We all need to at least break even at this point. So there just needs to be some sort of either grants or funding or low, low, low, low interest loans available to be able to do something like that. I think it's a great idea, but we have to make sure we put the foundation into place so then you don't have empty storefronts as

Gen Z Dining Behavior & the Bar Scene

SPEAKER_01 26:36

well.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Right. Okay, so let's move on to dining behavior and Gen C. So the first thing I want to talk about is uh, you know, in the old days you would have something known as a bar tab. So people would leave their credit cards or they would say, okay, put it on my tab, and they would be keeping a running tab. Uh but now in this generation, people are actually, you know, doing more transactions. Okay, they'll order, pay it right away. So, what does that do to the um to the social atmosphere of a tavern or the bar or wherever they are? How does that change the flow of conversations or you know, the social situation?

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Um, well, I'm the whole the put it on my tab thing might have just been in the movies, at least. Oh, okay. I don't know if it would be like a would that be a running tab like for days? Or or at least for the whole evening. In the evening, people I people are still doing that. So we have the capabilities. You can what's great now is you can swipe your card and then I mean they have all the information in our point of sale system, so you can continue to go back to the bars. So I do see that. Um, as far as like things being more transactional with the younger generation, I don't think I think we still have a bar scene or a community. I think the the situation now, and I'm not going to call it an issue because it's not an issue, it's fairly wonderful, but people are drinking less, and the younger generation is drinking less, that that could be affecting the you know, the bar scene more than the fact that they're not um running tabs. I think they're just not drinking as much. And I think that um, you know, that it is a worry because a lot of profit is made on alcohol, but I think they're also exploratory too, and they're exploring mocktails, and we have lots of non-alcoholic options that they're exploring as well. And like I said, I don't want to say drinking less is a bad thing. I think moderation is perfect, yeah. But I also feel like it's a little bit of a trend, and you know, I I think for the way our society has been built, I mean, wine to me, I'm Assam, so it's very important. And there's just so much conversation and culture around that as well, that I I don't want that to be lost forever.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

But yeah, and that's exactly what I was gonna ask you, being a Somalier. Um, you know, people are gravitating more towards these ready to uh drink drinks, you know, straight out of open up a can, you know, put it in. Um even the wines are much more uh to some extent approachable, and so that must bother you to some extent.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Yeah, I mean it is it's hard, it really is. Um I feel very fortunate at La Mora that we have, you know, it's really authentic Italian food and we only have Italian wine. So when people come, they want to experience the wine and really delve into it. But I will say at Punchball, I have this all-female, wonderful wine list of female owners, winemakers, vineyard managers, and it's more of the ready-to-drink cocktail scene, beer scene, wines by the glass scene, because it's a hotel and people aren't necessarily uh there, you know, to experience our wine list, although they do. Now and again, I won't say they don't experience the wine list. I think that um also with travel, like people aren't traveling as much. They are starting, or they were until this year, starting to travel more. And I I do feel like we'll get this back, like especially the experience you have with wine in other countries, and then they come back and they want to have that wine, they want to have that wine they had in Portugal or Italy Italy or Australia. So I I hope it's a trend. I think it's a trend. I do think it'll come back because, you know, especially with my background and what I have learned and the community I've built in the wine world, I would that would be devastating if that went away.

Remote Work & Table Turnover

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Right. Okay, so um uh in this day and age of remote work, we have this a lot of people want to go into, you know, they're working from home, they want to go into cafes and restaurants and spend their time in the in a in a in that setting to spend. At the same time, as an independent restaurant owner, any restaurant owner, you have this concept of table turnover. So you want certain X amount of revenue. So, how do you think that we're gonna balance the need for a third place for the young professionals versus the need for table turnover and X amount of revenue?

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Um, I actually think we're suffering from table turnover more because people are going out earlier and not later. And so the you might have those tables available at 8 and 8:30, 9 o'clock, but there's not necessarily a late night crowd, and I have and I really attest that to remote work in some ways, because when you're home and like you said, you know, it's like five o'clock or six o'clock, you're ready to start talking to people and seeing people, so you're going out earlier. And I don't know if it's just my generation, but I am seeing people going out so much earlier and not necessarily staying out later. And I think if the you know the kids these days are going out later, they want to kind of go back to where where they live in that area and not necessarily sit in a restaurant or go sit, go out to eat at nine, 10 o'clock. But that's just what I'm seeing a bit. I think turnover is really important, but at least you know, for higher-end restaurants, it's the most important thing if you have someone who's there for a longer period of time, you know, just to ensure that they're they're eating and having some nice wine with their meal also is very valuable.

unknown 32:23

Okay.

Tipping Fatigue

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Um we we briefly talked about this uh earlier about the tipping and how that impacts the total compensation. But uh what has happened um, particularly since COVID, um, pretty much every place where you're paying is now asking for tips, or you know, they'll switch the iPad around and say, okay, how much do you want to tip? Even if it is counter-service, even if you're going and serving yourself. Um so there is some sort of a tipping fatigue that there is in people. So, how do we go and tell people about the importance of tipping and and the role that it plays in the compensation in the restaurant sector versus all these other places that are now adding it?

SPEAKER_01 33:05

It's again, like, I wish I had the answers for that. I know being a restaurateur and growing up in this industry, if somebody flips the screen and it has a tip percentage, I tip them because I I just feel like, oh my gosh, maybe they're not being compensated, and maybe they're not. I mean, I don't, I do think retail is almost, you know, almost as hard as running restaurants and also really hard to pay your employees what they deserve to work in retail. Same with even you know, fast service and counter service. I don't think that they're making $30, $40 an hour. So I always think about that when I am tipping, that they probably do deserve the extra, the extra tip. I do feel like our culture is tip fatigued, but again, like if you have great service, why not? I mean, why not give somebody a tip? But I I don't think everybody feels that way. And you know, sure, in the restaurant industry they are paid $675, where someone else is paid. The minimum wage is $17 an hour. And that too is not a lot of money. So if you're making minimum wage, having an extra gratuity is is okay as well.

Mental Health & Wellness in Hospitality

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Okay, so let's uh move to another topic that you're very familiar with, which is the mental health and burnout issue. Uh you have the Round the Regions tour. Um for students who are considering a career in this industry. You know, when I grew up and I was in the industry, 60, 70, 80 hours was pretty common. Um but now people are looking for quality of life and balance between work and and and life as well. So how do you is wellness even possible in our industry?

SPEAKER_01 34:47

1000% it is possible. And it it should just be standard. And I do feel like I mean, I grew up in the front of the house, you know, doing being a server, as I mentioned. And, you know, I would go home, I come home from college and I would be so excited. I worked a triple yesterday, I worked breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That had nothing to do with the restaurant, and it had nothing to do with what they asked of me. That was because I was home for five days and I needed to make my entire semester of money in those five days. So I think there's this, you know, there's there are two sides to the story as well. However, I there are expectations, and especially in ownership and management, that you honestly are working sometimes 24-7. And it's just not feasible. And but it I do also think it's the responsibility, especially of the owner, but also of the management team, to check themselves too, and the and the kitchen team to make sure that they're still doing their job and meeting expectations, but they're not working these insane hours. And I but I do think a lot of people in our industry bring it on to themselves. I'm not saying everybody, because I know there are expectations in restaurants that require people to work more than they should. Mental health is so important, and our industry now offers so many resources, and thanks to Boston University as well, they have a program with Southern Smoke, which is out of Texas, and they Southern Smoke funds a grant that offers free mental health support to the hospitality industry. You only have to have worked, I think it's six months, for a restaurant to qualify. And it's not just mental health support, it's also if you're in a, God forbid you're in a car accident and you're out of work for three weeks, they'll help pay your wages. If you have to have an operation, they'll help pay you for that time. And there are many other organizations like Southern Smoke that I'm learning about now across the country. And the exciting thing is Mass Restaurant United is partnering with them and we're joining other coalitions that we can all band together to get the word out because many people don't know. I mean, we had Southern Smoke, Chris Shepard, the founder, at our breaking boundaries and hospitality event last year. It was one of the best panels. Everybody was saying, like, I had no idea they existed. So we're we're thankful to Boston University for partnering with them. And there are many other programs out there that offer the same support. And also like Samaritans in Boston. Did you know there was a thing you dial 988 if you want to talk to someone? I did not know that. Um, and everybody should know about 988. I just had a call with them recently, and Michael from Samaritans was saying to me, he said, it's not necessarily because you know you're having suicidal thoughts. It's just you might just need someone to talk to. And it it could be about anything. He said, they get people who are just a little lonely, but they man these phones 24-7. They have a huge phone power and volunteer support, so they're able to. So 988 is the number. And I we're just also working hard to get that the word out. Someone from Samaritans will be speaking at our conference this June as

Biggest Challenges Facing Independent Restaurants

SPEAKER_01 38:11

well.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Looking ahead, what do you see as some of the biggest challenges facing uh local restaurants or rather independent restaurants? I know you've talked about some of them.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Yeah, I mean, I really do think the profitability is the biggest challenge, and it's the entire ecosystem of that, all the way from agriculture, all the way to you know what is happening with labor and um processing fees. So I think economically that's our biggest challenge. Immigration is is huge, and it's a right now, especially because we are an industry that was built on immigrants. And I mean, I I can name like so many of my employees that came from other countries, and I just don't know how we could survive without their heart and soul as part of our industry. So I think advocating for our immigrant families is really important. Other challenges, I think also just education. I think being able to have it be an industry with upward mobility is important. The pathways, so many restaurants, like I've spoken here at Boston University and talk to your students, it's one of my favorite things to do. It's the teacher and me for sure. I look at the classroom and they, you know, say, you know, how can I open a restaurant? How can I own a restaurant? I always say to them, the most important thing is that you've worked in a restaurant and ideally worked in every aspect of that restaurant. I'm at a disadvantage. I never worked in the kitchen, they won't let me. I just set the fire alarm off the other night in the kitchen. Um, but I wish I had, even just, you know, and I wish I should still. I shouldn't say I wish I had. It's not too late. But try to work in every aspect of the industry because I think that's the most important. So when I say education, I also think for Mass Restaurant United and our independent restaurants, workforce development is so important. It's something we're really trying to foster, like having partnerships with Boston University, with Root North Shore, with future chefs, all these organizations who are working towards the next generation of hospitality leaders. That's very important to us, and I hope we will be able to offer those educational classes with these partnerships in the future as well.

AI in Restaurant Operations

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Um yeah, I the working in the kitchen, that's an excellent point. I remember a long time ago, probably 42 years ago, but when I first started my job, it was nine months I had to spend in the kitchen. So every aspect of the kitchen. And I still remember some of those days, uh, some of the things that I did there. Um, though I don't go into the kitchen a whole lot. It's pretty dangerous there. Okay, one question before we um go to the lightning round. So um the question is about AI. With all the things you have mentioned, um the labor challenges and the costs of everywhere. I'm wondering, um, curious to know, are you using AI in any way to help you in restaurant operations?

SPEAKER_01 41:18

I see it, so for me personally, I see AI working for me with um like Instagram, marketing, things that kind of route I could see. Again, I wish I had time to delve more into it because I do really see the benefits of it and the ability to use it in that respect. I know that a lot of our um point of sale systems, reservation systems, all of those systems are incorporating AI. And as the ED of MRU, I'm embracing those companies and learning so much of what they're able to do. Inventory control ordering. I think embracing AI in those respects will be so important. I think at some point we won't have to count inventory. You'll still have to count inventory, sadly, because there is still theft. But you will, it'll be a much more seamless process. Even just looking at, you know, year to year your PLs from year to year. I think using AI to decipher those PLs for you. And also I know um Eli Feldman, who he's also he's on our board, but I think he teaches here potentially, or I know he, I don't know if he doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

So he used to teach here before the pandemic, and then pandemic he said, I've got to make the restaurant survive. So but now we are getting him to work with our students on some AI-related stuff as well.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

He's my Eli's my AI guru. Yes. And I know that I've read articles that he's written, you know, working with toast and the toast point of sale system and ways to incorporate it on how you set up your menu, how you set up your line, who's working which station. You know, I always know like when I plan events, we can't have more than two pastas on that event menu, or that pasta chef's gonna get killed if you have a 50-person event. So you just have to be really conscious. And I think AI has, I know Eli's really learned a lot from AI with that. I think also there's this whole other flip side about AI as well, that um hospitality is human and we don't want to lose that human touch. Even the fact that I can't call many restaurants makes me crazy that no one's answering the phone. Even during, you know, even after two o'clock or three o'clock or four o'clock, they're just not answering the phone. Because AI is doing either answering the phone or or they just direct you to their website. Right. And I know for a fact, like you can sometimes find that extra table, or a table might finish earlier. And if you don't see the reservation or you don't call and just get on some sort of list, you won't know. So those kind of um like those that non Human touch, especially with the phone and with like that, that part of planning and execution of events, I think needs to be human. And then your table service again. I just I never thought there would be a world that restaurants weren't relevant. I always like, we're we're good. You know, maybe not our restaurant, but we're not going to have a world where restaurants aren't important. And then we had the pandemic, and you're like, oh, okay, like we might get shut down for a reason. I never thought that was possible. So now that we've seen that possibility, we need to be careful to make sure that that human touch continues and hospitality, that mentality of hospitality continues because it's in many people's blood, but it's not in everybody's blood. And it's so important to independent restaurants, but just restaurants in general.

unknown 44:49

Okay.

Lightning Round & Closing

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Um good news, we are at the end, but I have um a few more quick questions, short answers, no overthinking. Okay. Your non-negotiable morning coffee order.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

My non-negotiable morning coffee order. Oh, um, iced coffee.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Black coffee.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Iced black coffee, no room, no sweetener.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Uh this next one might be a little hard. Italy or Portugal, which is your ultimate soulmate travel destination?

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Okay, Italy for sure. I mean it's it's fairly even, but Italy, I have to say. So many visits.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Yeah, both are beautiful destinations.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Red, white, or bubbly. What is your class at the end of a long shift?

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Uh it's white. I do. I love my Willamette Chardonnay or my friend Chardonnay, I do admit.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

The one entry-level restaurant job, every young professional, every young professional should do at least once.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Hostessing.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Hostessing, okay. Your hidden talent or hobby that has nothing to do with food or wine?

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Skiing.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Skiing. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Okay. I mean, I let me redo that. Hidden talent? What do you mean on? That's hobby. Um that's a hobby, okay. Okay. Hidden talent, I'm raising future service dogs right now. Oh wow. And that is the talent, and it's my new passion.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Fantastic. One word to describe the future of independent restaurants in Brookline.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

Community.

unknown 46:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Keep coming. Keep coming. Okay. Keep coming. Community passion.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

So, Jen, thank you for such a thoughtful and a meaningful conversation. I really, really enjoyed it, and I hope that a lot of people are listening and they come and enjoy the restaurants. So, restaurants are not just businesses, they are the fabric of the communities. And leaders like you are helping to ensure that they continue to thrive and not just through great food and service, but through advocacy, connection, and purpose as well. So thank you for coming on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 46:55

If you would like to join the conversation or share your thoughts on this episode, you can email me at shawdean at bu.edu. That is s-h-a-d-en-. Thank you to the entire team at BU School of Hospitality. This episode was produced by Mara Littman with research and content development by Dr. Lan Lu, ably assisted by Alex Deenst and Isabella Lakin. To keep up with the Distinguished, be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. You can also learn more about experience innovation in our undergraduate and graduate programs by visiting BU.edu slash hospitality. I'm Arunupneja, Dean of BU School of Hospitality, wishing you many happy meals, wonderful company, and a bit of extra patience for the hardworking teams in our favorite local restaurants. Happy dining.